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Correct me if I’m wrong but all season tires do not come with the snowflake symbol (severe service symbol), only all weather tires like Michelin CrossClimate+ or Nokian WRG4’s have it.

Some all seasons have the M+S (mud and snow) but that’s not sufficient to deserve a recommendation in cold temperatures.

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“Over time, M+S became a standard marking to show the tire had some all-season capability compared to summer tires.

Unfortunately, it is a very one-dimensional test in that it only measures traction in packed snow and mud. It does not measure traction on ice, slush or traction on cold dry roads. For that reason the M+S Symbol falls short in helping fully evaluate winter tire performance expectations in winter driving conditions.”
From: Mountain/Snowflake Symbol Tires & M+S Tires Explained - The Tires-Easy Blog

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“You might be wondering why tires marked M+S (‘mud’ and ‘snow’), also known as all-season tires, don’t have the severe service symbol. That’s because all-season tires are safe for most conditions, but they’re not designed to give grip on ice or in sub-zero weather.

In fact, all-season and summer tires become hard at temperatures below 7 C, leaving you with reduced traction and unsafe handling. The new symbol was created to distinguish winter tires from all-season tires.”
From: What is the winter tire symbol? - Kal Tire
 

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AFAIK all-weather tires are just all-season tires that are closer to winter tires than they are to summer tires. It's all just semantics and marketing: for instance, TireRack considers the CrossClimate to be an all-season tire, and America's tire considers the Nokians to be all-season, whereas some other stores consider them to be all-weather.

I'd also disagree with the argument that all-seasons become hard below 40F. I've driven summer tires in the cold, and yes those do become hard and very sketchy below 35F, but I've also taken some all seasons into the single digits (I guess for you metric folks that's -12C) without any problems.
 

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The stores are putting them into that category so they show up in the search but if you go to the manufacturers websites, they’re called all weather.

It’s not semantics when they’ve got the snowflake and they don’t wear fast in warm weather..

OP was driving at appropriate speeds for these conditions and these all weather tires could have prevented a crash.
 

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The stores are putting them into that category so they show up in the search but if you go to the manufacturers websites, they’re called all weather.

It’s not semantics when they’ve got the snowflake and they don’t wear fast in warm weather..

OP was driving at appropriate speeds for these conditions and these all weather tires could have prevented a crash.
I don't dispute that, but I would argue that good all-season tires would have provided enough traction to prevent the crash too.
 

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Nothing is good on ice unless maybe chains.
Studded tires are great on ice and some studless tires are good.

There’s a Norwegian magazine that does extensive testing on icy conditions and many models do well.


I personally have the Nokian R3’s (studless) and they have decent braking power on ice.

”The extreme grip challenge of the Northern winter is overcome with the Arctic Sense Grip concept. Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 adapts to all variations of winter using different, carefully tailored sipes, which work optimally on ice, snow and bare roads. The new-generation rubber compound boosts optimal grip with Cryo Crystal 3 particles. Made of renewable bio-material, these microscopic crystals work like built-in studs, improving grip on ice by grabbing onto the driving surface thus bringing more of the needed grip reserve.”
 

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Bottom line:

If conditions are poor (slippery):

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!

I admit to mis-judging the amount of grip during snowy conditions in my youth, BTW. <SIGH>
 

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Bottom line:

If conditions are poor (slippery):

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!

I admit to mis-judging the amount of grip during snowy conditions in my youth, BTW. <SIGH>
I'll admit to misjudging my ability to handle conditions... just the other day!
 

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Poor handling, AWD SUV with summer tires in the ditch... All too common...


The terms "All season" and "M & S" are meaningless marketing terms.

The term "All Weather" and the "3 mountain Snowflake" symbol are technical terms.
 

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Not true...here in the Northwest we have many mountain passes, which have frequent "traction tires required"warnings, and the state patrol tickets people who do not have tires with the M&S stamped on them
 

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Not true...here in the Northwest we have many mountain passes, which have frequent "traction tires required"warnings, and the state patrol tickets people who do not have tires with the M&S stamped on them
Those requirements make sense but it doesn’t mean that what CalgaryHRV said isn’t true.

It would be disastrous if summer tires were allowed on these roads as they’d have to rescue every single car with them.

A good example of this is Vancouver recently received 5cm of snow and the city came to a standstill.

Some people live in mild areas so M+S tires are fine but if these people enter snowy or icy conditions, then they risk the chance of suffering the same fate as OP. That’s a fact.

“One would expect that the markings M+S or Mud and Snow on a tire would mean that it was designed for proper winter traction in all conditions. You might be surprised to find that it only defines a tire whose treads:

  • Have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge
  • Measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline, have a mimimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch
  • Have edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel
  • Have a contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25% based on mold dimensions
It says nothing about the tire's rubber compound and it's ability to stick to compact snow and ice.

from: DriveSmartBC
 

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Those requirements make sense but it doesn’t mean that what CalgaryHRV said isn’t true.

It would be disastrous if summer tires were allowed on these roads as they’d have to rescue every single car with them.

A good example of this is Vancouver recently received 5cm of snow and the city came to a standstill.

Some people live in mild areas so M+S tires are fine but if these people enter snowy or icy conditions, then they risk the chance of suffering the same fate as OP. That’s a fact.

“One would expect that the markings M+S or Mud and Snow on a tire would mean that it was designed for proper winter traction in all conditions. You might be surprised to find that it only defines a tire whose treads:

  • Have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge
  • Measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline, have a mimimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch
  • Have edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel
  • Have a contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25% based on mold dimensions
It says nothing about the tire's rubber compound and it's ability to stick to compact snow and ice.

from: DriveSmartBC
That doesn't mean that all M+S tires are incapable of driving in the snow. I have first hand experience with ones that are more than adequate. Are they as good as dedicated snow tires? No, but they can hold their own.
 

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I have no doubt the ones you’ve been using are good but eventually, you’ll find yourself in a situation like OP.

In these situations, the difference between good and very good saves you from a crash.
 

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This is why they require M+S on some roads. Some drivers aren't smart enough to realize their tires are inadequate in light snow.
 

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I have no doubt the ones you’ve been using are good but eventually, you’ll find yourself in a situation like OP.

In these situations, the difference between good and very good saves you from a crash.
How do you know that good all-seasons wouldn't have been enough? I'm not arguing that snow tires aren't superior to all-season tires in the snow, but my take is that good all-seasons likely would have been enough to avoid this particular accident. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but you can't say with certainty that good all-seasons would not have been enough. In my opinion, if you're driving fast enough that you crash with good all-seasons, it's too fast to be driving safely even with snow tires.
 

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His all season tires were a year old and the brand has good reviews. He also was going 15 under.

good wasn’t good enough.
His were decidedly NOT good. It's a cheap random brand, and their website was last updated in 2011. If you're telling me that's a reputable brand, I've got a bunch of bridges to sell to you.
 

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Type doral tires on amazon

Just on the first scroll on my phone, I see 178 reviews for a dozen or so of their products - average is higher than 4 stars

4 stars + isn’t good?

The truth is there’s no such thing as a very good all season tire. Some are ok, most are very mediocre, and others downright poor.
 

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Type doral tires on amazon

Just on the first scroll on my phone, I see 178 reviews for a dozen or so of their products - average is higher than 4 stars

4 stars + isn’t good?

The truth is there’s no such thing as a very good all season tire. Some are ok, most are very mediocre, and others downright poor.
that’s hardly a compelling argument. if you look for amazon reviews of tires by cheap chinese brands like westlake and some random brand i’ve never even heard of called supermax, you’ll see that they have even more reviews (and better reviews) than those dolan tires. you’re honestly telling me that those tires are as good as tires made by legitimate brands?

and again, if you actually read what i’m saying, i never said all seasons are good in the snow, so quit setting up these strawmen. my assertion is that the doral tires are crap in the snow and that a quality set of all seasons likely would have been enough to avoid sliding into the guardrail. this comes from decades of driving on both all seasons and snow tires, so this isn’t just me pulling bs out of my ass.
 
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